Comments on: BIG BOOK THEOLOGY: “We Agnostics” and William James (By James R.)

By: Susan Pryce

Susan Pryce — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 06:08:13 +0000

Wow…i was so excited to find and read this information. I’m an AA member and love The Big Book. I was intrigued when I came across “Came to Believe” while in jail for drunk driving.
I then was drawn to read the often mentioned “Varieties of Religious Experience”. I got so much from it. I live in a small town and haven’t met anyone who has read the book. If anyone out there knows the answers to these question I would love a response; Did Bill Wilson actually know William James?
Did they have a personal relationship? Was William James considered the third founding member of AA? Was Dr. Bob influenced by the writing of William James? And besides Emmett Fox’s work are there other writer, spiritual advisers who played primary roles in the development of AA?

My name is Susan P. and email address: guppyfish23@yahoo.com. Today’s date is 12/12/2011

By: Smith

Smith — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:46:29 +0000

I find it hard to believe that any discussion of christianity and AA without any mention of Emmett Fox is missing the point. This is a we program. It started with 2 alcoholics, and many different beliefs. That, for me, is the point, I can believe in any higher power if it works for me. AND I need to let you believe in any higher power you believe in. Love the discussion. Peace

By: John Hall

John Hall — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 00:15:03 +0000

See the GrapevineApril 2010 Spirituality & God-Talk by Ward Ewing Chair, General Service Board, an ordained Episcopal Priest and head of an Episcopalian seminary. The insistence of many on one dogma or another turns AA into just another church that proclaims my way or the highway and seeks to carefully divide the “ins from the outs”. I am an agnostic that is offended by much of what I read as carefully disguised Christian Theology in the Big Book particularly in the Chapter to the Agnostic. I am an agnostic because as the word is defined I am one that believes the God is unknowable. All else is an imperfect laying on and attribution by imperfect human constructs- Be still and know—The Tao that can be said is not the eternal Tao etc. etc. I like Ewing’s statement that your Higher Power is that which keeps you sober. Knowledge of which for me comes from my own personal meditation, experience, approaches to prayer and dependence. A power greater than my self that keeps me sober.

By: Terry B

Terry B — Sat, 06 Nov 2010 22:14:13 +0000

It doesn’t surprise me that after my nearly a quarter of a century of sobriety in a 75 year old working program of recovery we still can’t seem to read the very clear statements of “We Agnostics” but have to debate and debate. Agnostics and Atheists as the chapter said were “about half” of the beginning “membership”. The foundation was built on the “failures” of “The Oxford Group” to address the specific disease of alcoholism. The base was a belief in God, as has been said one of the “failed” members who was a continual relapse atheist and another “new” member, had some influence in adding the term “God as we understood Him” to the “concept”, of this debate Bill W. writes, “As umpire of these disputes, I was obliged to go pretty much down the middle, writing in spiritual, rather than in religious or entirely in psychological terms”. (AA Comes of Age, P17) One of the greatest “spiritual advisors” for our text was Emmet Fox, much of the Big Book’s spiritual principles are based on the New Testament especially the “Sermon On The Mount”. 1935 was ripe for a “Scientific Prayer”. In “AA Comes Of Age”, we find the zealous “evangelist”, Bill W. and the “medical” Dr Bob, one came for the spirit and one came for the life saving, both are needed for the “program spiritual in nature”.

It never hurts to aknowledge the God of our Understanding’s love and tolerance for those who don’t believe in Him, He still believes in us.

By: bob f.

bob f. — Sun, 17 Oct 2010 01:03:29 +0000

History of A.A. & its’ founders show a strong correlation between christain philosophy and A.A. My willingness to follow the program is uncondional. Step 2: drop the debate. Primary purpose is to stay sober…

By: Philip

Philip — Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:14:55 +0000

Dick B. Nicely said.

To me it doesn’t really matter if it’s going Christian, started Christian, or uses Christian principals. IT WORKS! On page 47 it states When, therefore, we speak of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Last but not least, Pg 93 Working with others, Tell him exactly what happened to you. Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. I have yet to read any of these sentences in the bible. But if you are still convinced that this is a Christian program try something else. I believe there is a cure getting pimped on TV these days.

By: Dick B.

Dick B. — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:27:39 +0000

The foregoing comments illustrate several things about today’s A.A. (1) He who tries to tie either the original program or the Twelve Step program to William James and call it “Jamesian” just doesn’t know the history of A.A. and the changes it suffered after 1935. (2) The real origins are the early A.A. Christian Fellowship program were: (a) Salvation Army. (b) Rescue Missions. (c) Evangelists like Moody, Sankey, Gough, Myers, Allen, and Sunday. (d)Lay workers in the YMCA in the late 1800′s. (e)The program of Young People’s Society of Christian Endeavor. (3) A knowledge of the Christian upbringing of Bill and Bob in Vermont enables the viewer to see the Christian principles that personified the original program. It certainly was not “of James.” It was “of the Bible,” and Dr. Bob said so quite often. (4) A knowledge of the real facts about Bill Wilson’s conversion to God through Jesus Christ–and how that was preceded by the advice of Dr. William D. Silkworth, the prior conversion of Ebby at the altar at Calvary Mission, and Bill’s statements that the Lord had cured him–should put an end to efforts to limit even the original A.A. program to its long-dead predecessor William James, its never-met “founder” Carl Jung, and its tenuous link to the Oxford Group–primarily in the New York area.
(5)The long-awaited unearthing this fall of the dramatic changes in the Big Book manuscript which had nothing to do with the facts about theology or James or the Bible, but rather exemplified what Bill Wilson called them–”compromise.” This meant a belated attempt to appease atheists and agnostics and widen membership, not some great theological unpheaval that hearkened back to Jamesian roots that didn’t have any signififant impact on the original Christian A.A. fellowship at all. Thanks for the opportunity to comment. Dick B.

By: bob l

bob l — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:40:32 +0000

if i remember correctly, dr. bob’s last words to bill w were approximately “let’s not louse this thing up-keep it simple” sometimes, i think, the more theological “stuff” i read the more confused i can become. which is not to say i didn’t gain much hope and knowledge from having read books like sermon on the mount (emmet fox). i think small, regular readings and/or doses of this sort of material is useful and necessary for spiritual growth. however there is much to be said for “easy does it, but do it” all i know is i have recieved heaps of hope from finding confirmation of TRUTH in more than one place.

By: Tom

Tom — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 03:06:03 +0000

I look at this way. If I want a program of recovery that does not stress the importance of a higher power, than I I should look elsewhere. Don’t step into AA and argue with it; it has saved many, many souls. Find something else. Personally, I believe if your ego makes you challenge the Principles, it’s also going to keep you from surrendering.

By: Craig Y

Craig Y — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:47:31 +0000

Michael, I still hope you are out there. I came across your comment today (6-28-2010) more than a year after your post just to let you know there is an Agnostic group in Sacramento, Ca. We meet every Tuesday @ 7:30 @ The Gethsemane Lutheran Church at 4706 Arden Way in Carmichael. Hope to see you there.